At the risk of making the blog endlessly self-referential, I’m going to continue the theme of autonomy from yesterday’s post, and respond to an interesting comment that was left. You can read the whole thing here but the essence of it was: What about 24×7 mistress/slave relationship that doesn’t use safewords? That is a loss of autonomy, but in the context of a loving trusting relationship. How can that be abuse?
I think the issue of safewords in this context is a red herring. I also don’t use safewords when I play with people I know well. I trust they’ll play safely and respond when I communicate a problem. And in the context of an daily 24×7 relationship it’d be kind of weird to safeword. They’re really a very specific safety mechanism that’s useful when doing particular types of scenes or playing with someone new.
What I think is key is that the slave always has an option to step-back and renegotiate (in the loosest and most general sense of that word). Ultimately they must always have the option to walk away. That doesn’t necessarily give the slave control of the relationship. The dominant might simply say it’s my way or the highway, and that single simple choice to consent might carry a lot of significant implications. But meaningful consent can only come from autonomy – from the ability to make an un-coerced decision. If you don’t have that then you can’t consent. And if you don’t consent then that’s an abusive relationship.
I was going to go on to say that you can never negotiate away the need for consent, but with further thought I’m not sure that’s true. I can conceive of doing it for short time periods. For example, a heavy corporal scene where a submissive agrees to be tied down and given 12 stripes of the cane with no option for escape. That seems a reasonable situation for a submissive to briefly give up his autonomy entirely. It might be painful, but it’s not dangerous, and it’s for a very limited time period. I don’t think it’s reasonable to stretch that kind of agreement for weeks or months. I’m not sure where that line is drawn, but I’m sure there is one.
Of course there is one scenario where a lack of autonomy doesn’t necessarily imply abuse, and that’s if you’re unlucky enough to be caught up in the penal system. Prisons don’t go much for negotiated scenes and safewords. I’m not sure what crime the man below committed, or what police department issued her uniform, but I’m sure justice will be served.
The image is by the very talented artist Vernice61. I believe she’s saying ‘And drink it down!”
I have to say that I find your analysis of the ‘autonomy’ issue in the previous blog entry convincing.
When you say:
“By emphasizing all the decisions I can no longer take the illusion is created of a loss of autonomy”
I think a lot of D/s play is indeed a sort of theatrical illusion enabled by a willing suspension of disbelief by the ‘actors’ (the participants) and the ‘audience’ (also the participants).
(Maybe that’s why some people introduce mirrors into the playroom).
Certainly the ‘dungeon’ in which the characters in Genet’s play ‘Le Balcon’ act out their roles of degradation and submission with professionals is consistently referred to as a ‘maison d’illusions’.
Does this mean that we’re all engaged in some kind of theatre of the absurd? Possibly. But then at its best it induces a state of intense, almost trance-like transcendence.
The theatrical illusion element is a complex one. In one sense it’s very much not an illusion. Canes, needles and cattle prods really hurt! And the kind of intense 24×7 dynamic described by slavenized is more than just a complex roleplay. But at the same time, consent and autonomy are critical things to maintain, yet a lot of the interaction is designed to try and cover that fact. As you originally said, people like the idea of being ‘forced’ or treated as if their opinions don’t matter, that they have no options. There’s an odd dichotomy at work, that I’ve yet to get a really good handle on.
-paltego
At the risk of some redundancy I believe the deeper the trust level, the less need for autonomy; which, btw, I believe is at work in all levels of D/s play particularly in the negotiation process.
Excellent posts and comments. Thanks W
I kind of agree and disagree here. On one hand I think autonomy is binary. Either I have it and can make my own informed decisions or I can’t. And if I can’t then I can’t consent. There’s no way to kind of have autonomy or to kind of consent. On the other hand, I think the deeper the level of trust the more significance is tied to the decision to consent. With a casual play partner the amount of negotiation will be higher and the more specific my consent will be. Someone I know and trust will get a lot more freedom (while still leaving me the option to withdraw my consent at any time).
Glad you’ve enjoyed the posts and comments.
-paltego
I’ve been following your blog for a very long time mr. paltego and I’m delighted that you devoted a new post to my troublesome comment on the last one! Your blog has truly helped me, both in the form of your incredible discussions in your posts as well as in the form of a general portal into the world of femdom on the web.
My main problem was that I got the feeling my relationship didn’t fit into your definition of consensual non-abusive relationships. But I agree after more consideration that I do, in fact, have autonomy. At least in the sense of mutual and loving understanding and if all else fails, the ability to walk away.
I in no way feel abused, but in my relationship I thoroughly NEED the feelings of real slavery that I get from shorter periods of complete lack of control. This for me is in NO WAY an illusion. It’s NOT theater at all. When I’m getting disciplined I can scream all I want, but she won’t stop before she feels I’ve been properly taken care of. For me, lack of a safe word here is CRUCIAL to the effectiveness of the discipline. It wouldn’t be effective as a punishment for me if I could chicken out when it really starts to hurt. That unavoidable, and at the moment NON-CONSENSUAL pain is necessary to not get it reduced to a funishment.
It’s not limited to canings either, but I really feel I develop as a submissive best through periods of total lack of control. The only way I can feel those feelings of complete surrendering, is by having no way of escaping the situations. For example by being bound or locked in, without any power of getting out before SHE deems it suitable. I thrive on being put in situations I do not necessarily want or choose. The feeling of real lack of control is intoxicating for me and very healthy for keeping and developing my submission.
This way of living is exotic and dangerous since it tangents on abuse, but in my relationship it’s based on extreme trust and love. It just works. It doesn’t feel at all as abuse, even though I find myself in short periods I really would safe word out of otherwise if I had the chance. Being on the edge like that, is what makes punishments effective on me.
I can’t renegotiate since I live this 24/7, it’s totally out of the question and her power is theoretically unlimited. What I do though, is that I at the end of the day write up my feelings and thoughts about what happened that day. This feedback back to her everyday, and my trust and love for her, is what makes this relationship possible. She understands how I work, and can read me very well as well. But that doesn’t give me any more power than she allows.
Life is complicated. I guess the keyword here is moderation and empathy. She’s got all the power, but she doesn’t put me in overly uncomfortable situations but instead keeps me on the edge of “wanting”/”not wanting”, with “not wanting” dominating when I’m being punished.
In the end, many things in life are non-consensual without it being classified as abuse. Prison wouldn’t be very useful if you could just walk out of there, but since a crime has been committed it isn’t considered abuse but justified. That’s kinda how her punishments work.
Glad the blog and its posts have been useful to you. Always happy to hear that.
I think as long as you have the option to go “Hold on, I have issues that I need to talk about” and, if that doesn’t resolve it, ultimately the option to walk away, then yes, that’s autonomy.
I don’t believe that autonomy is a analogue property, where people have more or less of it at different times. When I go into a fancy restaurant that has a dress code I don’t reduce my autonomy, even though there are rules I now have to follow. I’m making a free choice to either stay and dress appropriately or to leave and dress how I like.
Most people in non D/s relationships make lots of un-coerced decisions all the time. In a 24×7 D/s relationship like yours I think the submissive makes one very important one, which is to continue to consent. After that he or she typically has a lot more constraints, both figuratively and literally! But provided that initial decision is freely and regularly made, then that is autonomy.
Anyway thanks for sharing more of the background and context of your relationship. It’s always interesting to hear how people make these kind of complex dynamics work for them.
-paltego